Ever wondered how the siding industry is keeping up with the fast-paced changes of technology and the global landscape?

I had an insightful conversation with Paul Burleson, Senior Account Executive at Westlake Royal, an industry veteran with a wealth of experience, and we dove deep into the fascinating evolution of the siding industry.

In our interview, Paul shared his journey as a consultant for Westlake, shedding light on the dynamic shifts within the industry. 🚀 From remote virtual selling to the game-changing impact

QUESTION: What are your thoughts on remote selling and the role of AI in sales processes? Have you seen the industry shift towards solution-based approaches?

Share your insights below! ⬇️

#SidingIndustryInsights #VirtualSelling #AIInSales #BuildingMaterials #ProfessionalGrowth

PLEASE NOTE: There may be some typos and/or grammatical errors captured in the following transcription.

Video Summary

Paul and Jim discussed Paul’s extensive experience in the siding industry, his role as a consultant for Westlake, and the changes and evolution in the industry, including the introduction of remote virtual selling and the impact of COVID-19. Paul and Jim discussed the changes happening in the siding industry, including the incorporation of virtual technology and artificial intelligence.

They also talked about the importance of selling solutions rather than just products and the need for a systematic approach to be successful in the industry. Paul and Jim discussed the concept of remote selling and its effectiveness in the sales industry.

They explored different approaches, such as the Vanuwap model and sending demo boxes, to engage with customers remotely and make successful sales. In the conversation, Jim and Paul discussed the advancements in virtualization and integration technology in the building material industry.

They also talked about the potential use of artificial intelligence in sales processes and training modules. Paul and Jim discussed the building materials industry and Paul gave advice for newcomers, emphasizing the importance of hard work, hiring the right people, and focusing on helping others rather than just selling. They also discussed the potential of AI programs for virtual training in the recruiting world.

Transcript
@0:10 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
How are you?

@0:11 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
Good. How are doing?

@0:13 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
Fantastic. Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to be part of this.

@0:16 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
Hey, no problem. Thanks for being part of it.

@0:18 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
Yes, sir.

@0:20 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
Yes, you got a whole studio in your house.

@0:23 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
got spotlights in here. got a whole podcast studio.

@0:28 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
got a virtual studio.

@0:29 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
got a content studio. Just, you know, it makes it easier when you can do everything in one place.

@0:35 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
Yeah, no doubt about it. So what do you do? Do you do like most of video editing or what kind of stuff do you do?

@0:40 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
Well, so I do. As my role as a consultant for Westlake, I have 225 clients that I consult. I do a lot of virtual training.

I create a lot of podcasts, different things for clients. I do some video production for them, like testimonials. I’ve commercial, just whatever they need, as part of my service at all for the West Lakes, we provide it.

@1:07 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
Wow, I’ve actually do a lot for them. That’s wild. That’s good. you do all that stuff. Alright, cool. listen, let’s get right into it.

I see that you’ve been in the exciting world for a long time. were the Engler, you were the Owens Corner at one point, were on siding for one’s morning, you’re on a roof and so.

@1:26 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)

So Owens Corning, when they bought the Narendex rental, so I was on that. going back to my earliest time, I actually started with Amory at the age of 12.For no kidding. And I was with Amory and then on with Statewide and then did about six years of pay setters before I came out and went to work for Nails Alumna.So I’ve been to this since 83, now I’ve been out a week.

@1:52 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
Wow, I was in the siding world. And you’ve worked with different manufacturers I see and now you’ve been a lot of
Oh, 14 years. good company. Very, very good product. always been a good product. So, these are good stuff. So, how did you get started?
How did you start in the industry?

@2:11 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
How did you get started in your role? Okay, so obviously, as I mentioned, starting at the age of 12, I got into campus seeing was just kid riding the bicycle, but I’ve door hangers.
had a passion for the business. was kind of, you know, little bit of what they call the 10 men era, which I have my book coming out.

@2:29 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
Shameless plug.

@2:29 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
Tells us. The last 10 men that’s coming out in a movie. But so I kind of started and got a passion for that people could go in the home and spend five, six, seven hours and create an experience for someone and as emotional experience to give them an opportunity to change their home.

Maybe now their little kids could feel like they live in a home that sizes Johnny’s down the street and gave them a sort of belonging because of these things that exterior cladding did.

So then I stayed in the in-home selling side until I graduated college with two degrees, one in communications and one in marketing.

And then I went to work for Reynolds aluminum. And I was using my experiences and training companies all over the country on how to sell the home.

And then when they sold and then I transitioned over to Norandex training customers and then went on to Alcoa, where I first started pioneering.

So I had my first website in 2000. For the home premium industry started doing YouTube testimonials in 2005. I’ve always tried to be a pioneer and disruptive technology.

So I just can continue training and doing things without going until they became plaid Jim. And then I continued that aspect of training companies all over the country and bringing technology.

And then I was recruited from Westlake Royal at the time was crane. onIE, JustinLady. No thank Jaz de automobiles
And had the opportunity to go work with some innovators to do some of the things that I love. goal was to getting to a role as a consultant where Westlake has had me now for almost the past eight years.

And I specifically work with all the National Modeling organizations and sales organizations. And those companies are anywhere from home depot to Lowe’s to window world to champion the power to home fixed to window nation.

window depot, all the big players. I get an opportunity to see changes in the industry. And I get an opportunity to work with and influence the sales organizations of the day as they have changed over the past two decades.

@4:46 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
That’s great. That’s great. So what do you love most about the role that you’re in and the industry?

@4:52 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
Well, so you know, one thing about this business is it’s always changing. Let’s say that’s not true. See, for about 20 years, it didn’t change at all.

It was a time from like 85, I think, to like 2000 or so. There wasn’t much movement. There wasn’t much change.

And I think when you don’t have change, you get stale. You don’t grow. You don’t evolve. But with the evolution of all the things that have happened with the introduction of remote virtual selling, which I think will become a key factor.

We’ll talk more about that later if you’d like. And also, obviously, COVID changed so many things because it forced people to be at home.

But let’s look past all that. has really changed is the buying behavior. And because of that buying behavior, people are working at home more.

They have more experience, you know, doing reviews. They have more experience in using social media. And it’s created a lot of scenarios where it’s hard to get emotion back in the selling process, because a lot of people are just so busy anymore.

Right. I mean, they just. Just don’t have time. The average at home time was four to six hours for a sitting pitch.

Now, national average is about two hours and 20 minutes. Right. So, how do you do a warm up for 45 minutes?

How you doing inspection? I do a product presentation. do you expose all the pain points that close the solutions affects them in two hours and 20 minutes.

But the evolution where I see it going is it’s going to evolve to for more remote virtual. So, what I’m going to do is I’m going to take over the call centers to make more efficiency and automation.

And you’re going to see in the visualization tools to where you’ll be able to walk up to a home, take a picture of a home.

And it will use all the demographics and psychographics of the area of what the ages are and what the popular color, you know, like right now one black, the two popular color combinations, white signing, black trim, black, white.

And it will start evolving recommendations based on your neighborhood, based on the age of the home. things are already in the play.

And on the training side, you’re going to see more avatar, going to see more technology where you’ll actually be able to role play with you as if it was a live person.

@7:24 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
And you’re seeing that within your organization, you’re seeing that course the whole industry.

@7:29 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
So I’m starting to see that in the industry in general. What I always try to do. I always try to be ahead of the curve.

So I started working on remote virtual selling seven years ago. I met with a guy named Dell Thornberry, who was the Godfather of virtualization.

He created equal tech. He also wrote and designed all the patents that were created for hover. And anyone on to do one quick contractor, but he had the technology.

He could take pictures and transfer them into measurement. So what I visualize, okay, so I see this movement happening because you take storm storm damage, right?

So you got 15 20 claims. You can’t get out to replace and there’s some areas like Chicago are hard to get to, right?

But what if they could send you a picture, calculate the measurement, you could estimate 15 20 jobs. So that’s where I started evolving, but where I really started latching on the past year has been with the artificial intelligence.

So what I do is I attend conferences for AI and companies outside our industry and teach them and help them create tools for our industry and then to do exclusive agreements with us as the only manufacturer.

So that’s kind of been my play is to find this technology and incorporate into the industry.

@8:57 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
Wow. That’s interesting. That’s. A company has that because I came back from, before I started this business, I worked for GAF for over 10 years.

And I’m sure they have somebody like you there now too, would have to. But 15 years ago, didn’t think of anything like this.

It’s really amazing. So we talked a little bit about how some things are changing as far as virtual and I want to get back to that in a second.

But how do you see things changing within the siting industry itself? There’s a lot of five or cement stuff out there now and a lot of other options.

What do you see? Any changes do you see growth in the future with vinyl?

@9:39 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
Well, I think you stepped back. think part of the problem with all products is the art of selling has been lost.

If you just have to look at the product and not be able to explain the features and benefits for how it solves problems with pain.

And every problem has it’s downfalls, right? to talk bad about five or cement or. For your PVC because, you know, we do obviously make so your PVC siding, called select.

But it just depends on what you’re looking for. Like if you’re looking for a product, like the big growth right now is all these government regulations we’re looking at.

So they’re going to shake out with insulated siding, you know, as far as tax credits is going to be kind of laid out by state.

But insulated siding is the only product that I know that actually has true benefits to your home. It helps channel moisture away from the wall.

It helps for impact resistance. It has prevent all in the foam that will help help cure termites or kill termites.

You know, it’ll reduce the amount of noise in your home by 40, 45%. It has a how our value.

Well, obviously, fiber cement can’t make those claims because it doesn’t do those things. And it’s not a maintenance free product.

What a consumer wants is a maintenance free product. The breakdown comes in the sales organization. Because we’re in a transition phase.

The old guys, the 45 to 55 year old guys, refused to change. So they’re stopping and leaving the industry.

So we have a newer generation and you can say the newer generation can’t sell because you look at power in a remodeling.

And 3,400 kids, mostly an age of 24, but another one sells organization in the country. It’s $60,,000 in home with no sales experience.

Why? Because they follow a proven system in the home. And they have a successful follow up and system of everything they do.

So that, I think, is one of reasons why you see a lot of maybe not expanded growth sometimes with citing.

Because there’s a lot of pieces and parts. And then it comes down to install and install has always been an issue.

And always will be because there’s an art to installing. Siding right you can’t face now. You can’t use nail guns.

You know, you got to have a dime sized space, so you have to cut it properly and there’s all these things.

And sometimes people just rather take things way out. But even so your PVC is an issue, right? Because expansion and contraction.

If you don’t, you know, you have to center pin it and expand it out in both ways. So I think the key is, is lack of the system.

Those who are not being successful don’t have a system. And the key is, is quit selling product and take a consultive approach.

Don’t come and tell the customer what they need. a solution more than you do the product. And then a fire expose the and closer the solution to make it go away.

house is sick and write a prescription to make it healthy again.

@12:50 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
That’s great way to do it. You’re coming from on from Long Island. violence was huge out there. have a very, very big, very, very big out there.

@12:59 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
We kill it out there. Keep quality.

@13:00 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
I was on the phone in the home. I know.

@13:03 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
Yeah.

@13:04 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
They were there with clients in mind. Great. Chris over there.

@13:09 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
No, he’s gone. Been gone for almost 12 14 years now.

@13:15 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
Jeff is a good guy. Good people. Do you know Billy guest to. He sided my house.

@13:26 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
Oh, there you go. There you go.

@13:28 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
I know his brother. His brother John was a client of mine. It was the big roofer of mine at GA.

@13:34 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
Awesome. Well, I know Jeff does a lot of business with GA.

@13:38 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
Yeah, he does. Yeah, he does. I’m the one who got him out there years ago. He survived the camera nationally.

And we started to convert him over. So. So what changes? Well, you talked about remote selling and it’s funny.

You mentioned that because there really is not a day that goes by that I don’t get a candidate asking me.

Okay. Okay. work out. Can I work remotely out of my house? Do I have to be on a road?

And I always listen to in sales, you need to be in front of people. So the answer to answer that is yes.

And most of the clients that I’m working with, we both know who people I work with, mostly the manufacturers within the industry.

Once people out in the road, once people out there in the industry, there’s one people out in front of contractors, in front of builders and so on.

@14:21 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
So talk to me a little bit about remote selling. about? People were forced to do something they didn’t want to do.

They didn’t want to be part of it. But, excuse me, here’s what I learned. There were times, there’s still is time.

So I do 20 remote virtual trainings a week out of the studio. Me, virtual is as the norm as it used to be being in front of people.

Like, I can do 200 trainings before I even do a seminar with Dave Yoho or Rick Grasso to be in front of people again.

And they’re like, this is weird because I’m in front of people. It’s about accepting the norm and understanding getting comfortable.

And the key to it is to be successful. You have to be the same representation remotely as you are alive.

You have to have the same energy level. There’s a lot of psychology that goes into being good at this.

got to have proper lighting. I love what you send out about having the microphones. got to have the right cameras.

Use a 4K camera. I use a very high definition microphone. I have three different types of soft lighting, hard lighting.

Different and I’ve redesigned the studio and set based on the presentation. then the monitors, you got to be able to hear yourself on how you’re sounding.

So there’s a lot of art to that side. Now, the key is, is some of the models that I’ve been able to help create from remote virtual cell is what I call the Vanuwap model.

It’s a very simple approach. So how many times have you had a cell’s guy come back to you or heard they went back to the sales manager and said what they said in the home and you’re like, if I could have heard that objection, I could have saved the cell, right?

You’ve heard you’ve been in that role, right? So here’s how this works. He’s of the home on the outside.

He gets all the measurements. He sends them in. He comes in. He sets up the laptop. He sets up the window, the roofing samples, the siding, whatever it may be.

And then you come in as remote closer and you do the presentation. He plays Vanuwap. He shows the samples.

He goes through it. Now this gives you an opportunity to put your best foot forward. And once you understand all the needs that he sent you pictures and videos and you have all this.

Now, you can remotely close and assist that customer. That’s one way. What about this? How many customers sometimes don’t get off work to 11 o’clock?

You’re never going to be able to go pitch them in their home. They want you to come in at 11 o’clock.

But what if you could do a remote presentation to them and send what I call the demo box? Send them pieces of the siding, send them chemicals, send them things, and then you get on the phone with them live and demo them as they demo themselves making emotional, right?

Or you send samples to them. The only thing that kills this process is color, right? Identifying a color. You can’t make a decision on color on a computer screen.

It’s not going to be accurate. So getting those samples, sample box, you know, the virtual boxes, I call it to them or they can pick it up and they can go through that process with you.

That’s one way. And the other way that I kind of explained. But it can be successful. The key is, is you have to understand, you can’t, no death by power points.

You cannot make power points. You can do presentations. It all has to be live demo like this table I have here.

When I train, I literally do 100% live demos. And you say I got my chemicals on the wall over here.

I mean, but I do the live demos with the customers. And that’s part of the process. We even used to do.

I’m I patent the system called driveway selling during COVID where I would literally pull up in the driveway. I would take pictures of your house.

I would set a table out for all the samples. And I would set in the car. I would put a computer and iPad on the table and sterilize it.

And then I would set back in the car and I would virtually communicate with you through video. And then you would demo yourself and then I would take pictures.

So it’s all about evolution and evolve. But think of how much time you say. You can only see so many customers, right?
But you can use this, the thing that I see this going to, in my vision and dream in the next five to ten years, I visualize I can have ten salespeople around the country with ten different shirts in their closet and let’s say a champion or let’s say a home fix or a window nation or a new pro or a nest.

Or whoever may be can be in the home, they’ll use my guys as remote closers, they’ll go in, set it up, the guy will put on the shirt, he’ll remote clothes, whatever the product specializes in.

Then I could set up a warehouse of 30, 40, 50 remote closers who actually are focused on the art of selling because that is becoming a lost art of what we do today.

Sorry for long wanted to answer.

@19:55 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
Oh, that’s that’s okay. So, this is all. Talking about mostly is the contract of selling to the homeowner. What do you think as far as on the building material side, somebody who’s working for Royal, somebody’s working for GAF?

@20:08 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
Could that be done virtual? There is so much integration technology that has already been brought into play that Beacon is using, know, like actual GPS tracking and the delivery of products and, you know, video and virtual is a, I mean, anything you can dream up with all of these advances in artificial intelligence and integration is possible.

There is nothing that’s not possible now. Like if you say I have a need, I would like to see, like I had somebody call me today and said, tell me how it could take a set of plans, a builder could take a set of plans and show that a homeowner could have all these different color options and turn it to a sample.

Well, you can do that using chameleon, arena. Works, our dream designer tool. There’s a lot of tools out there.

But you will see a lot of artificial intelligence. I think start to come into play of deliveries and efficiency.

And like more of a CRM approach right where it comes in and they manage the call all the way through the process like the customer was called back at this time.

It’s going to the home at this time. And that’s one of the biggest problems in sales. Is that there’s no communication after the sale through the sale.
Or after you get the check. Because a lot of times people when they get the money, they’re glad to get in.

They just run. They do the sprint and hope that nobody catches on for the getaway right because you’re afraid that someone’s going to you can approach it like that.

So you will see much more integration and managing through the sales process. And there’s a lot of that stuff out there like John.
big convergence. A lot of those tools out there currently.

@22:02 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
Okay. So the whole industry is changing. It’s crazy. It really, really is. yeah, so post COVID, you’re seeing, I was, I think I would think that what you’re working on prior to COVID is really, it really took off after COVID.
It started getting virtual steam. it’s getting it so it’s all steam.

@22:24 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
Yeah, you know what happened? All the virtualization approaches were like rocket ships before COVID. Then it died and I used to use the phrase, you know, virtualization killed socialization, right?

Because it made people be forced. But then when they came out of COVID and a lot of people, I mean, just look, a lot of folks have really worked three or four jobs to be at home.

You know, and think of the old persona. You can never be productive at home because you wouldn’t work. Now it’s the opposite.

People are more productive. When I’m off the road, I’ll put in 16 hours. When I’m on the road, I’m in rental cars, I’m in airports, I’m in airplanes, I’m in hotels, it breaks your cycle.

So there is a lot of efficiency and people are able to, you know, to transfer to transfer more through virtualization and tools like a portable.

@23:25 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
It’s not sure if you’re familiar with real or it’s a speech analytics tool that’s used to manage sales performance.

@23:33 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
So I could actually put this behind our presentation right now, and it will tell me how many words I said, what I should have did different.

If I talk too much, if you were a customer, if you throw up an injection, how I didn’t handle it properly, even send a message to the sales manager immediately to say Paul’s on the home on a virtual call, and he didn’t handle this property, you may want to send him a tax.

So you can manage the performance. When you put in the key tracking words of your entire sales force and not even be active, like you could have 25 people selling the home and manage all their performance just from the analytics and the reports instantly.

That’s the top technology. It’s called Reel of Voice. It was created by a gentleman named Sebastian Jimenez out of Brooklyn, New York.

And this guy will be the next Bill Gates. He was one of the first artificial intelligence companies I worked with over three years ago, and it’s unbelievable.

If you’ve not heard of it, you’ve got to look it up.

@24:35 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
Reel of voice. Well, absolutely. we definitely want to check that out.

@24:39 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
All right. L.O. ABO. I see. Yeah.

@24:45 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)

Okay. Cool. Definitely check that out. Hey, mentioned goals that you had you wanted to do. would like to, yeah, within the next 10 years, have a team, 10 people, you know, more, you know, pushing what you’re doing.
Any other goals that you have in the next. Yes. One of three years.

@25:02 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
Yes, so this is what I’m working on now. I’m actually working with Reolivos to create a role playing avatar series.

So you would go through and as a sales person, you would have different avatar consumers that would come up with the artificial intelligence role play with you, though your objections and you handle it and you go through all the levels and you get to the top level and my avatar will be at the top level where you’ll have the toughest objections and the hardest things to overcome.

So that’s first phase is that virtual training module. My second goal is, you know, I’ve been on the speaking circuit for, oh gosh, over a decade.

And, you know, unfortunately, a lot of that’s going to change. I mean, Mr. Yoho’s 96, Mr. Garso’s 81. So what’s the next evolution of training?
So I visualize creating a training platform that could have you, it could be me, could be five or six, some other people.

Or 20 other people and the consumer goes on, they choose the speaker. They choose which topic they want to speak on, right?
And then you will have a moderator. There will be an avatar that will transition from piece to piece, but they customize their own virtual training modules.

And the thing about AI is, is these things learn. They learn and they learn their own responses, which is unbelievable.

But I believe I can create a virtual training module that you can go on and choose anytime today and make it feel like it’s live, interact with it and all the artificial intelligence and the capability.

If I, this was my avatar right now, you could ask me a question and I could be remote and even answer you to my avatar.

@26:46 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)

And that’s just gets good for any industry too. There’s a stick to build materials that gets it’s endless. That’s that’s that’s that’s that’s that’s really that’s really neat.

The applications are really neat on that. So somebody coming into the build a material. New to the building and into the industry.

What words of advice would you give to them?

@27:06 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
I think if somebody wanted to have an amazing career and if they’re willing to work, there is not an easier place to succeed than this industry.

And I’ll tell you why, because all the culture, you’ve been in this business a long time, and you may or may not admit, the culture that we were in is diminished.

It’s gone. you know, you just can’t go and see It’s been an hour and be a professional visitor, you know, with the guy anymore.

You know, you’ve got to have a reason for them for people to do business with you. But it really comes down to hard work.

You know, and it comes down to this. train people when you’re hiring people on the flip side of this, hire the right person and add the skill.

Don’t hire somebody with the skillset and hope they’ll be a good person. it’s not somebody who would have over your house for dinner, then it’s not somebody who

But you want to hire. So we got to hire the right people. We got to hire passionate people. want to make a difference.

And then we got to learn how to manage them. You can manage everybody that’s seen. Everybody’s like a cookbook.

They’ve got a different recipe. Every recipe turns out a different taste in the food. You can’t manage everybody the same.

And that’s been a problem is that sales people will come from a role where they didn’t want to be held accountable as salespeople and now they’re sales managers.

and now they don’t know people accountable because they want to be accountable and then production. But if you’re willing to work, if you’re willing to go in and listen and be a good soldier, because the biggest problem is everybody comes in with a better mass trap they think, right?

even if it’s a better mass trap, sometimes if it’s decision-made, decision-made, follow the structure, follow the system, be a good soldier.

If you will come in with the mindset of helping people and changing people’s lives and quit selling and helping

People buy. I have made more million dollar salespeople than I can count. And the secret and the secret solution that is, is to quit selling and seeing people as dollar signs.

See is a chance to make their life better. And you will have your life will flourish for more money and more success and you could count.

@29:20 – Jim McKenna (DSP Careers)
Well, that’s great advice, because you’re right. That’s that orange bean lost. Yeah, and anybody who still can do it, it’s very, very successful.

And that’s some great advice. Well, listen, I appreciate your time. I really do appreciate your insight. Very, very, very interesting what you’re doing.

I’d like to like to learn more and stay in touch and learn how your new AI programs is working.

Because that’s really intriguing to me. I’m thinking in the recruiting world, as far as doing that virtual training, know, virtual training or something like that, that’s incredible.

That’s a big deal.

@29:53 – Paul Burleson (Fathom)
Absolutely. I appreciate what you’re doing from the industry and trying to give it a shot in the arm and keep it alive.

One man can’t do it alone. It takes all of us, but if I’m out on the road, anybody would like, you can find me.